This week on The Signal, Dino confronts a seismic Supreme Court decision that lifts protections against unlawful ICE stops, opening the door to racial profiling across Southern California. With ACLU attorney Myra Joaquin and binational policy leaders, we examine what this ruling means for immigrant communities, public safety, democracy—and how people can fight back.
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TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
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ANNOUNCER
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ANNOUNCER
You're listening to Kpfk, 90.7 FM Los Angeles.
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MUSIC
I the US live from the same. Your your I said I can all get inside and look at you. Get up outside. See the airline I see you if you say Revolucion el presidente. Look, if I sell, I make it. It's with his head. And they look at.
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ANNOUNCER
Me and I do.
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DINO
Hello? When I started this Los Angeles. Good afternoon, L.A., welcome to this new and exciting episode of The Signal here on Kpfk, 90.7 FM. And you can always tune in on kpfk.org. Today we have a special episode. I'm going to, I'm going to start off by, you know, it's been a difficult week for all of us. It's been a difficult week for a variety of different reasons.
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DINO
You know, one of the benefits and challenges of having a one hour public affairs talk radio show a week is that, you know, you have five days, six, seven days, essentially to prepare. And one of the good things about that is that we oftentimes make time to make sure we try and put together, a good broadcast for you all.
00:02:03:08 - 00:02:36:06
DINO
And it gives us time to really look at what's happening on the week's news now. By that same issue, we, find ourselves in a difficult position because sometimes we will coordinate a broadcast and then things happen, right? It goes without saying that this week, you know, in our immediate ecosystem of the signal news, information and analysis, we had two significant events that we want to bring to your attention and for a variety of different reasons.
00:02:36:08 - 00:03:02:11
DINO
You know, we had to shift our previous commitments. And I want to say thank you to our other guests, whom we had to move around because we wanted to make space and time, particularly around this Charlie Kirk idea or that idea, this tragedy. And I am going to say tragedy. We'll get into it. Shortly. But I do want to provide one additional update.
00:03:02:13 - 00:03:33:06
DINO
Many of you may have seen on the news, you may have heard that earlier this week and on Monday, in fact, the United States Supreme Court officially granted the federal government's request for a stay of the temporary restraining order that had been issued a short while back earlier this summer. Now, we had the signal I'd been covering that issue, been covering that issue, quite closely.
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DINO
We had had on previous episodes invited some of the lead counsel for some of the plaintiffs. So we've been keeping an eye on that case for very important reasons. One of which manifested.
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DINO
This particular Monday. And that was that. On Monday, the Supreme Court issued a ruling effectively suspending court protections that had shielded immigrant communities in Southern California from unlawful ice raids. One thing is absolutely clear, folks. And let me let me say this very directly. The court's decision gives a green light to immigration agents to stop, detain and arrest people based on how they look, what language they speak, or the kind of work that they do.
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DINO
This is unprecedented. For as long as most of us who are on this broadcast listening, and those of us here, even my bordoff window, who you know, he's my boy, man. And I love him, and he's at least 175 years old. I window and you know, he can tell you that, you know, as long as we can all remember collectively, the Fourth amendment of the Constitution has always held firm.
00:05:00:12 - 00:05:20:10
DINO
You cannot have your Fourth Amendment violations violated. Fourth amendment rights. Excuse me. And this Monday, the Supreme Court allowed Ice agents to, in fact, racially profile you.
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DINO
So, of course, the big question now is, does that mean that the Constitution does not apply to some of us in this country? Indeed, one of the big problems, and one of the reasons this lawsuit was originally filed and why we started covering it here on The Signal, was because you had folks, you know, people like me, slightly darker shade of brown, and others who were being summarily targeted, stopped, detain, question and arrested.
00:05:55:02 - 00:06:22:12
DINO
So this ruling for many of us, you know, we feared that this ruling was coming, given the composition of the Supreme Court. And while the community braced for its outcome, a deep fear now looms over the city, over the state, over the country. Really, because this isn't just a legal setback, ladies and gentlemen. At its core, it's a moral failure.
00:06:22:14 - 00:06:53:17
DINO
It's a signal that legalized discrimination is alive and well, and it's emanating from the highest land, which is the Supreme Court. It was the Supreme Court who said, it's okay for Ice officers to stereotype you, to profile you, to stop you. If they hear you speaking Spanish.
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DINO
So.
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DINO
For us, it was important to cover this issue because it is transformative. It is transformative for our community. It is transformative for our audience. It is transformative for this city. It is transformative for this country.
00:07:16:14 - 00:07:48:22
DINO
From what I've seen in the streets, even here in the studio and the conversations with advocates and other political champions, the message is clear. The community is not backing down. So as we prepare to go into this next phase of news, information and analysis, we'll continue to bring this topic to you, because we do believe firmly that it's these type of issues that we need to keep a close eye on.
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DINO
Many in our community strongly feel that this is.
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DINO
The beginning of what is a systemic change being put forward by the current administration that we've seen in other areas, rollbacks on protections for LGBTQ community, IT rollbacks, other legal rollbacks that impact schooling, law enforcement, health care, social security. So we are, without a doubt, and a period in history in which our communities need to prepare for what is coming down the road, and that is a change that, quite frankly, many of us did not think.
00:08:36:08 - 00:08:58:09
DINO
And let me close out this part of my opening commentary on this topic by sharing this, I had, a reporter actually, or somebody in the industry asked me, hey, Dina, what do you think? Do you think this is worse than the time of the Gestapo? He said, and at first I thought, okay, well, you know, I see why many draw those parallel.
00:08:58:12 - 00:09:40:16
DINO
Sure. But my response to him was, well, actually. It's not like the time of the Gestapo. It is indeed very much worse. And I'm gonna tell you why. Because the periods that saw the type of oppression, the type of exploitation and mass, targeting and murder, subsequent murder of individuals under the then, Third Reich regime. You know, this is a period in history where you didn't have the type of advances or you didn't have the type of growth and development of a society as we do today.
00:09:40:18 - 00:10:00:04
DINO
And the fact that we have regressed back to that is, to me, one of the biggest concerns and why we keep covering this issue. Now, you know, for the, the soapbox, you know, I do once in a while, I take moderator privilege or I should say host privilege and give myself the opportunity to talk about this.
00:10:00:04 - 00:10:39:16
DINO
But to get that brief update back on this issue of the Supreme Court ruling to give us a quick update on what's going on there. We're welcoming back Mara, watching one of the lead counsel, senior staff attorney at the ACLU of Southern California and one of the lead counsels in the case of the Vasquez Perdomo versus Noam, who also helped secure the original temporary restraining order, defended help defend, this case at the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and is now, there on the forefront with her colleagues fighting this issue at the Supreme Court, which has approved the state.
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DINO
Myra, welcome back to the signal.
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MYRA
Thank you for having me as well.
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DINO
Thank you. So, you know, I was kind of going off on my little soapbox there, expressing concern over some of these issues and, you know, let's let's just do the basics right. What exactly did the Supreme Court decide? And, how did they justify it?
00:11:04:06 - 00:11:34:06
MYRA
So on Monday, the, the U.S. Supreme Court granted the government's request to stay in temperature in order that we had had in place in the Central district. And, it was on it wasn't a serving, decision in the sense that there was no information about how what led the majority to grant to stay request there was no were supporting the stay request.
00:11:34:06 - 00:12:00:19
MYRA
All that we saw from from the decision. Well, it's internal opinion covers the entire Justice Kavanaugh and northern justice and certainly covers of dissents written by Justice Sotomayor. That was joined by two other justices. But the decision to grant the same question itself did not provide us any information about the reasons that the court sought to grant the request.
00:12:00:21 - 00:12:18:16
DINO
So no real reason provided, which leaves all of us. I mean, I imagine you all in the legal team, those of us that are on the outside of that, in a very difficult environment. What does this mean for immigrant communities on the ground, especially those in Southern California?
00:12:18:18 - 00:12:46:24
MYRA
At this time, it does mean that the temporary restraining order that was issued earlier this summer is, that says currently on pause there there is no, order that prevents the government from conducting stops that are based on the four factors that have been identified in the order, which are race, opponent, education, location, or if someone speaks Spanish.
00:12:47:01 - 00:13:13:15
MYRA
This does not mean, however, that the government can continue to conduct lawless stops, which are I mean stop. That is not based on reasonable suspicion. The law remains the same. The decision that we saw on Monday does not change the Fourth Amendment law. That applies for how, a federal agent can stop someone and arrest them, or even ask some questions about immigration status.
00:13:13:17 - 00:13:49:15
MYRA
That law has not changed. And so even if you know, there's not an order in place that expressly says you cannot use these four factors to stop someone, the government must still have reasonable suspicion before they stop anyone that that person is in the US in violation of immigration law, because if they do not have that information, and if they are only stopping individuals at random, that can still be a basis to go back to the court and tell the court that they are continuing to conduct stops that are unlawful.
00:13:49:17 - 00:14:28:10
DINO
My guest is Maya Joaquin. Senior staff attorney at the ACLU of Southern California and lead counsel on the case of Vasquez. Perdomo versus Norm. We're talking about this, decision by the Supreme Court of the United States to grant a stay for the temporary restraining order, or against the temporary restraining order issued earlier this summer that sought to mitigate the horrific roving patrols and roundups that were being executed by Ice and the Trump administration's draconian effort against migrants and other immigrants in this country.
00:14:28:12 - 00:14:45:12
DINO
Mara, let's talk about the, legal next steps and the is the case over? I know you mentioned that it doesn't change things, but, you know what? What's next in the coming weeks and months on this case?
00:14:45:14 - 00:15:10:04
MYRA
Certainly. And the case is far from over. Generally lawsuits and, so litigation does last many years. So we are still at an early, early stages of the case. There is a hearing that is set for September 24th, where there is a pending, request for a preliminary injunction that could address the issues that are implicated in the case, including access to counsel.
00:15:10:06 - 00:15:31:14
MYRA
And there are other motions that are set to be heard by the court on that date. And so there there's still a lot that will be done. And I think I could speak for all legal team and follow cases that everyone who's participating in this case is committed to continuing to protect the rights of all immigrants and communities within Southern California.
00:15:31:16 - 00:15:54:04
MYRA
And we will continue to explore every avenue that we have available to make sure that, immigration judges are not conducting the kind of patrol stops that they were doing earlier this summer, and that they're not violating people's rights when they stop someone, but they're not stopping people simply because of the color of their skin. And so there's there's a lot more to be done, and we will continue moving ahead.
00:15:54:06 - 00:16:04:11
MYRA
But there was a really disappointing decision that the team has, preparing to move forward. And, is doing so in the coming weeks.
00:16:04:13 - 00:16:26:01
DINO
And one more question before I let you go, Mara, and thank you for making the time. What can the community do? I know that there was a large effort, strong effort and wide call to have people document these experiences to ensure that we can have some sense of accountability when these actions are being executed against members of the community.
00:16:26:03 - 00:16:33:02
DINO
What can people do moving forward as this is litigated in the courts?
00:16:33:04 - 00:17:00:13
MYRA
First, it's it's really important that we continue to hear from the community whenever there is, a stop by immigration meetings in, in their homes or in their communities. We all need that information, and to connect with people who may have been impacted by and stopped by immigration agents so we can have a better understanding of what, led the stop to occur, how this stuff happened.
00:17:00:15 - 00:17:33:19
MYRA
Information about what? What kinds of questions that person was asked, whether whether it was indeed a brief defensive stop in the way that Justice Kavanaugh seems to believe that these are occurring, which what we think is far from what's happening in reality. And so it is important for us to continue to connect with any individual who's being impacted by these stops, so we can gather more information and so that we can go back to the court with current evidence as to what's happening on the ground and how, immigration agents are conducting these stops.
00:17:33:20 - 00:17:43:21
DINO
Fantastic. And hopefully we can have you back, in the coming weeks and months as this court case continues. Thank you very much. Myra.
00:17:43:23 - 00:17:48:09
MYRA
Thank you so much for having me. And thank you all for something.
00:17:48:11 - 00:18:21:08
DINO
That was Myra Hawkin, one of the lead attorneys with the American Civil Liberties Union on the, case of, Perdomo versus Nome. She's a senior staff attorney at the ACLU, talking about the Supreme Court decision to stay the temporary restraining order that is no longer in effect in Los Angeles. Stay with us. We'll be right back where we're going to touch on the strengthening of U.S. Mexico relations through a special project, the Mexican American Political Alliance.
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DINO
You'll hear more about it right away.
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MUSIC
And general, ideas on Monday. Send your staff and June. And I said I can all get it inside, and you'll get to get out the side of the. And I'll see, if you say hi to Revolution, you. Oh.
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MUSIC
Senor el Presidente.
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MUSIC
Look at that salami. It's with. If they look at me and say to him, get in. It's on through Haiti. Say.
00:19:05:07 - 00:19:38:12
DINO
Welcome back. The United States and Mexico are connected by geography, culture and economy. Yet in today's political climate, we see growing isolationism upon the Mexican American Policy Alliance is pushing back on this next week in Mexico City, Mapa will host a summit bringing together leaders from both sides of the border to strengthen collaboration and build solutions on a variety of issues immigration, health, energy, economic prosperity.
00:19:38:14 - 00:19:45:04
DINO
And they're doing so in this environment and political culture. We find ourselves in, where
00:19:45:06 - 00:20:15:22
DINO
isolationism seems to prevail. On behalf of the federal administration, we are experiencing at this time. My next guest is Nora Preciado, who has long worked at the intersection of immigrant rights and binational collaborations and is the current co-executive director of Mapa. She helps lead policy, dialog and cross-border partnerships grounded in innovation and community power, and she is also an attorney by training.
00:20:15:24 - 00:20:20:11
DINO
Note welcome to the Signal.
00:20:20:13 - 00:20:22:17
NORA
Good afternoon. Thank you for having me.
00:20:22:19 - 00:20:32:19
DINO
So let's let's get into this. How did this project first come to fruition? When did you guys develop this?
00:20:32:21 - 00:20:59:08
NORA
It was the Mexican American Policy Alliance, or Mapa, as we lovingly call it. Started as a project by senior strategist because there was this really strong desire to strengthen the relationship between a region closely connected to Mexico, the southwest, led by California, as you know, leaders, we saw this chance to work together on binational issues that affect people on both sides of the border.
00:20:59:10 - 00:21:29:13
NORA
And we thought that in order to make that happen, Mapa needed to be created and now includes seven states in the US that are part of this effort. But it really all began with open discussion among, legislators and lawmakers, nonprofit leaders, and others from many different sectors who are committed to strengthening this collaboration to developing policies to address by national issues, and to promoting cultural and human exchanges between Mexico and the U.S.
00:21:29:15 - 00:21:59:10
DINO
So, wow. So this started as a single initiative. If I understand correctly, you're saying there's now seven states involved. That's significant. That's quite accomplishment. Congratulations. A ou navigate forward with this project and this what is otherwise hostile, you know, administration growing isolationism. How has this project been received by these participants across these seven states here on the US side?
00:21:59:12 - 00:22:09:00
NORA
It's been really well received because as you mentioned, right now we are seeing that federal politics are defined by fear division.
00:22:09:00 - 00:22:36:11
NORA
And as you mentioned, isolationist. But the reality is that our communities can't afford to wait on Washington to get this right. That's why state and local leaders who see every day how closely we are tied to Mexico, whether it's by trade, jobs, education, culture or all of our immigrant families and heritage, they they saw the need to fill this void at the federal level.
00:22:36:13 - 00:22:59:11
NORA
That's why now, by stepping in, we're creating a space for real collaboration that is rooted in trust and shared prosperity, especially in this time when we all know it's needed. The most. We're not waiting on Washington. We're leading from our communities. The summit really is about replacing that hostility with partnership, and that devotion with dignity.
00:22:59:13 - 00:23:27:16
DINO
So California and Mexico, California in particular. And as somebody who's navigated the public policy world for a while myself, you know, there's a long shared history of binational collaboration. What are some of the examples of the programs that you all are looking to lay groundwork in? Right. As I mentioned in my intro, I know that there and talking to you and leading up to this segment, we talked a little bit about, health economics, education, things of that nature.
00:23:27:22 - 00:23:33:09
DINO
But give us an example on what a practical collaboration looks like.
00:23:33:11 - 00:24:13:15
NORA
Yeah, California and Mexico do have a rich history of any mention of this binational collaboration that has laid the groundwork for my position. Some of the programs that highlight that collaboration include a doctor's program that places doctors in underserved communities across California. We've seen a number of cross-border kids and exchange programs that have created educational ties and have enriched the experiences of students, both in Mexico and the U.S. we've also seen countless robust economic and trade partnerships in sectors like agriculture, energy, which is only going to increase tourism, for example.
00:24:13:20 - 00:24:45:23
NORA
Again, looking at this, driving the shared prosperity, we've seen public health and environmental collaborations along the border, that address critical issues affecting both regions. And of course, we see often cultural initiatives that celebrate that interconnectedness and our heritage, strengthening that bond. Map is building on all of the successful programs by advocating for, broader policy coordination, which is why we're so excited that there is now seven states involved in this effort here in the US.
00:24:46:00 - 00:25:01:03
NORA
And we're pushing for a long term vision that makes sure that the make sure that that collaborative spirit, that we are looking for continues to thrive and evolve, particularly to meet the needs of the moment, but also beyond.
00:25:01:05 - 00:25:23:16
DINO
Now, I'm excited about this because when I think of, you know, in the absence of real, meaningful action on the part of, the administration, the idea that some of you all are taking the, this action, you know, into your own hands and saying, we're going to do this. Who, state federal elected officials are a participant.
00:25:23:17 - 00:25:29:13
DINO
When you say seven different states whose coming together on both sides of the border.
00:25:29:15 - 00:26:03:13
ANNOUNCER
So for the US states, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Texas, Illinois and Wisconsin, who will have legislative delegations representing, at the summit, next week, we also have leaders of the nonprofit foundations sector and leaders of industry from both sides and from Mexico. We have federal officials, in different Secretary s, in Mexico that are going to be helping push this work.
00:26:03:15 - 00:26:17:04
ANNOUNCER
We're trying to really again, take the reins of this, continued collaboration and not wait for Washington to lead, particularly because all these states are greatly positioned to do that.
00:26:17:06 - 00:26:47:22
DINO
And and it sounds like these are also all states in which, back to one of our ongoing topics here at the signal. Politics. These are key. You know, battleground states, right? You said Illinois, Arizona. For this folks here, one of the things that I hear as, somebody in the news world on particular topics and I wonder if this will be one of them, I oftentimes hear things like, well, why should I care?
00:26:47:24 - 00:27:05:15
DINO
I'm worried about x issue or Y issue and things that impact me here. And while that's always a valid, concern, relative, for those who are listening right now, why should they care that such a summit is happening in Mexico City?
00:27:05:17 - 00:27:36:22
NORA
Yeah, I think to Los Angeles, who really cared? Because what happens between the U.S. and Mexico directly shapes life here, right? Our city is home to the largest Mexican diaspora outside of Mexico. So the ties that we're talking about are in abstract. There lived every single day by all Angelinos. When L.A. leaders are sitting down with Mexican leaders, we're talking about issues that impact people here at home jobs, trade, immigrant integration, education, cultural exchanges.
00:27:36:24 - 00:28:01:06
NORA
The Moca summit is about making sure that those connections are strengthened and protected. What happens in Mexico City matters here in L.A because our economy, families, our future, are truly inseparable. So I think that's why folks should should care. And you talked about, you know, some issues that that people are, interested in. We're going to be focusing on many of them.
00:28:01:06 - 00:28:20:04
NORA
Right. And again, they have repercussions and impact on both sides of the border, whether it's trade, drug, training, the economy, workforce development, the environment, all of these things, are interconnected. And that's why I think all Angelinos, should note, take note and care.
00:28:20:09 - 00:28:41:07
NORA
Well, you know, it's funny that you say that because, one of our listeners and a local, in fact, a local elected official whose name I will not share just texted me and said, you know, what the hell? How come I didn't hear about this? How do we get involved? So, to share this text message, this angry text message I just got.
00:28:41:09 - 00:29:04:02
DINO
So how will people get involved moving forward? Obviously, this is taking place, this coming week. I went to my producer. I said, I think I should be there, and my producer in L.A. said, let me think about it. So we might be very well covering this, in the coming weeks and months, but how can others get involved as this issue comes?
00:29:04:04 - 00:29:06:05
DINO
Develops further?
00:29:06:07 - 00:29:32:22
NORA
Yeah. So I think our, our vision, if Mapa succeeds, is really, really very exciting. And I think there will be room and a role for everyone to play that's interested. We're hoping that in a year we can see stronger partnerships. We've seen all the states that I mentioned and many more, particularly those that have, strong Latino communities, and that federal officials and entities in Mexico, and us can show some early successes and policies change.
00:29:32:22 - 00:30:00:01
NORA
So whether folks are interested in moving policy forward or expanding networks of collaboration there, there will be a place to do that. Our ambitious goal is that looking ahead five years, we aim to have a very solid binational framework in place, that includes cross-border agreements, sustainable projects that benefit both countries. We want to continue to see long term integration of cultural and policy initiatives.
00:30:00:03 - 00:30:26:11
NORA
And really, our goal is to redefine this Mexico relations to be more collaborative, focus on people, being resilient and creating this stronger bond between our nations. So I think that there will be a number of initiatives that will come out of this summit and are already underway, where folks with different interests on different strategies, on different issues, but that bring in that collaboration across borders.
00:30:26:13 - 00:30:34:03
NORA
We'll find something, of interest and something that will, allow them to, to be involved in this effort.
00:30:34:05 - 00:30:48:22
DINO
Is there a website, not, that you would like to, direct people to if they want to learn more about it or if they want to sign up? Where can they go so that they can learn more and keep an eye on this issue as it develops?
00:30:48:24 - 00:31:26:08
NORA
Yes. The Mexican American Policy Alliance has a website. It is WW dot mex. Policy.org, and you will find information about, our veteran who is involved in this effort, and past events and we hope to create page particularly on follow up so that others can after the summit, continue to work together. But there's also contact information there so you can reach out to us if you are interested in, engaging in the work that comes out of that summit.
00:31:26:10 - 00:31:49:21
DINO
Wonderful. My guest has been not up to Seattle, co-executive director of the Mexican American Policy Alliance. Laura, thank you for joining us and for giving us a look at the Mapa summit coming up next week in this important work, building stronger ties across borders. This is the signal on Kpfk, 90.7 FM. Stay with us. We'll be right back on picks of political assassinations.
00:31:49:21 - 00:32:09:01
DINO
My guest will be Doctor Claudia Sandoval, assistant professor of political science at Moreno Valley College. And we're going to take your calls. 818985 Kpfk (818) 985-5735. It's going to be a difficult topic, but a much needed one. Stay with us.
00:32:09:03 - 00:32:36:06
MUSIC
Government in general. What ideas get living on Monday? Same. You never know stop in June. And I said I can all get up inside and look at you. Get outside see my Uriel and I see you. If you say hi to Revolucion.
00:32:36:08 - 00:32:38:13
MUSIC
Senor El Presidente.
00:32:38:15 - 00:32:42:09
MUSIC
Look at my salami. It's smoothie fat.
00:32:42:09 - 00:33:14:23
DINO
And as we delve back in, our next topic is something that's been at the forefront of just about every media source out there in a lot of our homes. Indeed, I came into the studio, this afternoon and, you know, almost immediately, my producer now and I touched on this topic. We actually rearranged we restructured our program this week, so that we can make space for you all to connect with us and have this conversation.
00:33:15:00 - 00:33:53:05
DINO
And that's this issue of the Charlie Kirk, assassination. What happened to Charlie Kirk is unsettling. Political violence doesn't heal. It doesn't repair. If anything, it adds trauma at every level imaginable. And yet, almost immediately after the news broke, reaction split. Some celebrated his death. Others demanded dignity. Still others said, hey, the chickens came home to roost. There were even people dancing on video online and one of the many interweb and, social media platforms that are out there.
00:33:53:07 - 00:34:19:09
DINO
So what does that say about us as a society? That's the one thing that I immediately defaulted to. At the same time, we saw the opportunist of the politicians spinning married narratives and, you know, media assigning blame with absolutely no evidence. And indeed, those chickens did, in fact come home to roost. That, too, is a reflection of who we become.
00:34:19:11 - 00:34:53:11
DINO
The truth is, folks, that this is an emotional issue for a variety of different reasons, not just the politics of the times we live in, but it's an emotional issue. You know, I want to add something to this, and I mentioned this to my producer, that I was going to add a little additional personal note on the way in this afternoon as I was driving in here to the studios, I got a message, an emergency message that my local school had just gone into lockdown.
00:34:53:13 - 00:35:18:17
DINO
As a parent, as a father, as a concerned member of the community, as a citizen of this country, as a resident, you know, every emotion crossed my mind, especially because my student, my one of my one of my kids is a student worker who's there on a Saturday afternoon and I had to pull over for a second and think, what do I do?
00:35:18:19 - 00:35:39:23
DINO
Of course, your first instinct as a parent is, let me turn around and go see what's happening. There's little to no information. The alerts start coming in school lockdown, school lockdown and the case of where I live in a small southeast city. I got it from both the city, the police officers or the police, local police agency, and of course the school itself.
00:35:40:00 - 00:36:12:16
DINO
And immediately, you know, the calls start ringing out, trying to connect with your child. And there's this moment of desperation and you can't help but to feel an absolute sense of horror. This uncertainty. But at the same time, at least in my case, try and be measured in what I did next. I kid you not, a part of me said, I can turn this car around and drive back 45 minutes, if not longer and little to nothing can I do?
00:36:12:16 - 00:36:35:24
DINO
I certainly can't go in there and bust open a kind of a bash on whomever is the one that's causing this trouble. No, it doesn't work that way. Well, as I was deciding that, you know, I did get a message for my kid. And thank God nobody in the school was in harm's way and end. Things kind of started rolling out.
00:36:36:01 - 00:36:48:01
DINO
But since I last connected, you know, it's been 45 an hour and they've still been in lockdown. And we now know that there was an incident outside there resulted from a car chase.
00:36:48:03 - 00:37:20:24
DINO
And, you know, it got me thinking right as I was then driving in the final 20 minutes and I was connected with my producer and were thinking like, oh my God, we need to change the show format. I have so much more to say. It's just one of those very complicated emotional topics. Charlie Kirk represents both a reflection of American society's deep roots in bigotry and racism, and a singular figure who actively shaped and spread those ideas.
00:37:21:01 - 00:37:48:17
DINO
He is not simply a product of his environment or was a product of his environment, but he was also an architect of his own destructive influence. In the end, his downfall was not imposed from the outside, but indeed nurtured by his own hands. The inevitable consequence of a career built on amplify and prejudice. Put simply, Kirk became a victim of his own success.
00:37:48:21 - 00:38:18:12
DINO
could argue. But if we stop here, we missed the larger point. His rise and fall should not be read as an individual story, but as a mirror held up to our politics and culture. The danger is that leaders, rather than recognizing the damage done, will seek to profit from his legacy. Adding fuel to the fire that consumed him, the very fire that consumed him.
00:38:18:14 - 00:38:38:05
DINO
My guest on this topic is Doctor Claudia Sandoval, assistant professor of political science from Moreno Valley College. She is an analyst, political commentator and I invited her to come share with us. She has a background.
00:38:38:07 - 00:39:03:12
DINO
In her area of expertise, she explores issues of power, justice, and civic responsibility. She helps students and communities make sense of democracy and its failures in real time. So as we as we prepare to go into this topic and again, I do want to hear from you all. 81895 Kpfk 818955735. Hit the option one so that you can get directed to the studio.
00:39:03:14 - 00:39:28:10
DINO
And please be thoughtful of your comments. Remember that, these are emotional issues, and while we are interested in hearing your intelligent and reflection and intelligent reflections on this topic, we don't want to hear drama or any kind of outburst. Please, you will get cut off. You are not going to be, given a moment to profile yourself.
00:39:28:12 - 00:39:40:13
DINO
So professor, going back to you, the reaction to Kirk's death turn quickly from shock to celebration. What does that say about the health of our political culture, our mundo?
00:39:40:13 - 00:40:12:11
CLAUDIA
First of all, thank you so much, for this invitation. I'm very happy to speak with you and your audience. I think that, you know, what this tells us about the health of our political culture is that we're a little sick right now, right? I think that it's really unfortunate that we've we're experiencing this moment where, empathy seems to be the topic on both sides of the political aisle for some reason.
00:40:12:13 - 00:40:45:12
CLAUDIA
You know, I think that it's it's a little hard for me because I don't know that I saw celebration as much as I saw a reflection of this is what happens when you speak these types of horrors into existence, right? Yeah. And, you know, Charlie Kirk said empathy was not good for our democracy, right? He made a point to say when there were school shootings.
00:40:45:14 - 00:41:20:16
CLAUDIA
Don't let the emotions get the best of you right. Let's not let the emotions, keep us from our path of allowing people to have guns. Right. And then he said, you know, a death is a it is a sacrifice that we all have to accept. And so I think that what we're seeing when when people say they're celebrating is not so much celebration again, it's that he said these things when other people were hurting.
00:41:20:18 - 00:41:48:18
CLAUDIA
And now you're you're asking everybody who has felt that hanging over and over and over again, whether it's because we're mothers, we, have heard of school lockdowns, you know, in our close proximity, or we know somebody who has who has lost somebody in a tragic mass shooting. But now you're asking us to value one life more.
00:41:48:20 - 00:41:49:15
DINO
00:41:49:17 - 00:42:32:22
CLAUDIA
Than all the other life that we've mourned. Right. And it's not about not valuing his life, but rather reflecting on his own words to say this is what he wanted from a society. Right, right. And, you know, people can make mental gymnastics to make them mean something else. And, you know, he said, but I think a lot of people are using this moment to say he would have wanted us to not have, you know, to not empathize with his family because he didn't want us to empathize with all of the families in Uvalde.
00:42:32:24 - 00:42:39:13
CLAUDIA
He didn't want us to empathize with all the people from the pulse nightclub, Dodge.
00:42:39:15 - 00:42:39:22
DINO
Sandoval.
00:42:39:24 - 00:42:40:22
CLAUDIA
And so what do you do?
00:42:41:01 - 00:43:02:17
DINO
It's what do you do? Okay, so I'm glad you say that. You know, the day that this happened, later that evening when I, I got a chance to to talk to my, my two, or my kids. Right. Or one is an a daughter on his own. The other one's wrapping up her high school career. And I asked them I asked them both, what do you guys make of this?
00:43:02:19 - 00:43:28:18
DINO
And one of the one of the one of the responses I got was, you know, this is the type of person that, you either really loved or you really hated. But at the end of the day, you taught us, one of my kids said, you know, killing is bad under any and all circumstances, while the other one said, well, around here, everybody just kind of called them the the d bag.
00:43:28:20 - 00:43:29:20
JELANI
00:43:29:22 - 00:43:56:24
DINO
You know, and, and, you know, and as we start to tackle this, right, I mean, I saw it as a lesson as a, as a teachable moment. Well, let's talk about what does it mean to have this kind of, this, this, this kind of a gruesome death played out life or, you know, on social media, which essentially it was, you know, some say everyone deserves a level of respect.
00:43:56:24 - 00:44:26:07
DINO
And you touched on something very important because this is an individual who built a career on the opposite of empathy. And again, and as I pointed out in my opening, one could argue that the chickens came home to roost to him. Right? So as we talk about this idea of compassion, you know, what is where is the line between empathy and accountability in the political environment we're living in today?
00:44:26:09 - 00:44:58:06
CLAUDIA
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the, I've been seeing some posts online where I think we're confusing a couple of things. Right. And people were saying he didn't deserve to die. No one technically deserves to die. But we are all going to die, right? But he didn't deserve to die like this, and I agree. And I think most, most people agree that nobody deserves to die in such a gruesome and horrible and even public manner.
00:44:58:08 - 00:45:29:14
CLAUDIA
Right? But at the same time and at the same time, not but and at the same time, we live in a moment in time where I open my social media post, and just a few days ago, I saw a video of a child who was crying and screaming and walking aimlessly around his decapitated mother and blown up father.
00:45:29:16 - 00:45:56:04
CLAUDIA
That kid also doesn't deserve to experience that, right? And I think here it is that people assume that we're saying he deserved it. No, most people have said nobody deserves it. And why haven't we done anything to stop anybody from from experiencing this type of trauma? And unfortunately,
00:45:56:04 - 00:46:10:23
CLAUDIA
you draw the line down to leadership and people's power. And he was one of the reasons why we can't stop from experiencing this type of horrible, horrible, visual realities.
00:46:11:00 - 00:46:13:15
CLAUDIA
Right? So if he did not deserve it right.
00:46:13:15 - 00:46:41:08
DINO
So okay, so I'm glad you're making that distinction, right. Because, I yes, I think as a general ground rule. Right. Nobody wants to sit there short of you being somebody who's completely off the air and in any and all ideological, emotional, social and otherwise human spectrum to say this person needs to die for any random reason, or particularly I oppose or I'm against that particular topic would be just right.
00:46:41:10 - 00:47:00:23
DINO
That said, you know, and you already touched on some of these issues. This is a person who, you know, openly said, hey, it's okay if some people die, right? I mean, to me, I mean, they're wild. I mean, I got to make a confession, a confession. You know, I very I knew very little. I knew this guy existed.
00:47:00:23 - 00:47:23:13
DINO
I had not paid attention. It's not something on my, you know, on my issue areas, that I cover. And since this assassination, I've been inundated, with videos and messages. And as I shared with others that we were going to be or others called me, said, are you going to cover this issue on your show? Yes.
00:47:23:15 - 00:47:51:16
DINO
And since then, I've come to the conclusion that I probably found every single video clip of this guy and the crab he espoused were impulsive and absolutely bigoted, if not open up racism. But again, I still wouldn't say, yeah, he deserved to die. You know, Jim, from Glendale sent us a message and says it's not just the about what she thinks is most broken in our society and how do we heal from it.
00:47:51:18 - 00:47:54:10
CLAUDIA
Yeah.
00:47:54:12 - 00:47:58:05
DINO
I, I, I which one is most broken?
00:47:58:07 - 00:48:29:15
CLAUDIA
Yeah. I, I honestly think the thing that is most broken in our society is our ability, to think critically. And I think that that's something that is quickly becoming the thing we're losing the most. Right. We are asked to believe in this and not believe in that and believe in this and not believe in that without any real, substantive conversation of why or why not.
00:48:29:17 - 00:48:50:02
CLAUDIA
And and we're doing so as we're also, you know, asking our federal government to eliminate certain types of education that an administration doesn't agree with. And we're also asked to cancel cancel culture because we should all have liberty to say whatever we want, except for not those things.
00:48:50:04 - 00:48:50:20
DINO
Right.
00:48:50:22 - 00:49:01:21
CLAUDIA
And but we're losing critical thinking. And that is what is making us act as a society in a way that isn't allowed to think.
00:49:01:23 - 00:49:14:05
DINO
Doctor Sandoval, I know that we're keeping you a little longer than we originally. We can we take a call from Orange County, Jelani from Orange County. What say you on this topic?
00:49:14:07 - 00:49:36:04
JELANI
What's happening to, first of all, peace. I love the, the radio station. I'm a I'm a big fan. I'm a big hip hop head. And I remember back to, back in the day when, Tupac Shakur, was assassinated. A lot of people from the left and the right were saying, oh, will you look at his musical content?
00:49:36:04 - 00:50:03:01
JELANI
And you look at what he was saying, and it's inevitable that he's going to be, underlined by his words that he put into the ether. And what he chose to put out there. Yeah, some of that, I'm definitely a, a believer in. I don't like Comrade Karma, energy, because that's that's what it is, you know, it's energy.
00:50:03:06 - 00:50:16:21
JELANI
So the energy you put out is the energy you put in. So, like I said, those people from the left, right, basically, who's more of a Caucasian,
00:50:16:23 - 00:50:56:04
JELANI
Field assignment to say that he he died because, x, y z. And so as far as, you know, trying to mourn for this man, they try to, you know, just do the opposite. So in a way, it's contrast and hypocrite, hypocritical contrast where you see this dude basically, you know, putting what he put out in the ether and like, the lady in front of me said, it's not that people are, quote unquote mourning, but it's just the fact that people are, making plans for me of the death at the same time, like a death is a death.
00:50:56:04 - 00:51:23:18
JELANI
Anybody that dies, it's unfortunate. It's sad. Now, a lot of times when people die, it's it's the last bit of, okay, what I do here on this planet where this man obviously in the midst of him talking the words he was saying was of, spewing a lot of, you know, a lot of stuff that come back to bite us in the back side.
00:51:23:18 - 00:51:35:13
JELANI
And I believe that's what happened. And it's not that people are happy about it. It's just you look at the overall hypocrisy of everything going on as if we do it in front of door. If they do it, oh, look, look, look.
00:51:35:13 - 00:51:39:23
DINO
Right, right. And now of course, we now know that, you know, that's
00:51:40:00 - 00:51:40:15
JELANI
Right.
00:51:40:17 - 00:52:02:17
DINO
We now know that, you know, this individual is indeed a conservative. This individual comes from a family of gun owners and others who have been staunch supporters of the Trump administration. And even just before we went to air, there is, some additional allegations that I won't go into because we've not been able to verify ourselves. But, you know, dark side of all he brings up.
00:52:02:17 - 00:52:32:08
DINO
Jelani brings up an interesting point. I remember this this, this period, when the murder of Tupac Shakur happened and there was this fervor out there about this individual who, through his artistic medium, decided to, to to paraphrase, some of the comments back in those days, you know, describe and tell the story of a subculture that is very much prominent in our society.
00:52:32:10 - 00:52:50:05
DINO
So my question to you is, is this particular period we're living in a reflection of what maybe am I am I overstepping when I say that the collapse of political morality is upon us, or has that already happened?
00:52:50:07 - 00:52:58:13
CLAUDIA
I think that, I think that there's a little bit of, the political,
00:52:58:15 - 00:53:20:24
CLAUDIA
morality has declined. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's also defined by how we define, that type of violence. You know, people are calling it political violence. We think of some political violence as necessary, and some like what happened this week, unnecessary, and gruesome.
00:53:20:24 - 00:53:58:07
CLAUDIA
Right. But I would we spoke about this a couple days ago. What about what's happening in our black and Latino communities where, you know, families are stressed, they're anxious, they are depressed. Is that not a type of political violence to. And we you know, people seem to think that that's okay. And so I think it is a reflection of, you know, some type of decline in our social morality when we say, you know, it's okay that these people are suffering because they deserve it, but other people don't deserve it.
00:53:58:08 - 00:54:08:11
DINO
That's right, that's right. We have time for one more call in. Enrique from Newport Beach. Enrique, what's your take on all of this?
00:54:08:13 - 00:54:11:01
DINO
Enrique are you there?
00:54:11:03 - 00:54:12:00
JELANI
Oh, I really think.
00:54:12:00 - 00:54:13:03
ENRIQUE
He was following me.
00:54:13:05 - 00:54:46:09
ENRIQUE
I can barely hear you. Don't see it coming. Like, how is that? It came to me the fact that killed, Malcolm X before I knew was somebody who was advocating for the situation of the black people, and all of a sudden, they're killing, Uncle Cade or the little radical vocal radicals. And in the black and the white side of the people, there's no doubt there are certain, David, the Martin Luther King.
00:54:46:11 - 00:54:48:23
ENRIQUE
Now, excuse me, the Malcolm.
00:54:48:23 - 00:54:50:02
DINO
X, right.
00:54:50:04 - 00:54:54:01
ENRIQUE
Of the of the white people.
00:54:54:03 - 00:54:54:09
DINO
Yeah.
00:54:54:10 - 00:54:59:09
ENRIQUE
Just you make sense to me because it was the same thing. Okay. On the.
00:54:59:11 - 00:54:59:22
DINO
00:54:59:23 - 00:55:02:06
ENRIQUE
Okay. Let's thank you.
00:55:02:08 - 00:55:02:21
DINO
Nikki, for.
00:55:02:21 - 00:55:06:06
ENRIQUE
My welcome. And Rick of Newport Beach.
00:55:06:08 - 00:55:35:19
DINO
Is drawing a parallel that quite frankly, I've not, I've heard it, you know, are there parallels here, between a staunch advocate for his community and people, as was, Malcolm X and then this guy, which, you know, again, I've not heard this, this framing yet, but, Doctor Sandoval, as we begin to wrap this up, let's go to you for one final message in this, on this topic.
00:55:35:19 - 00:56:02:21
DINO
And so what's your message to our community today as we look at how there's a rush to politicize this tragedy, this, this tragedy, what role do everyday people play in how we engage or disengage on issues of apathy and this climate of ours? What's your final message to our listeners as we continue to navigate the next coming weeks, which will likely be difficult?
00:56:02:23 - 00:56:27:15
CLAUDIA
Yeah, I think my message would be that I think we have to take a stand on all types of violence. And no matter who it impacts, right. We can't be selective that they deserve it. They don't deserve it. I think we need to put a stop to that type of language. You know, and we need to tell our leadership to stop that type of language.
00:56:27:17 - 00:56:51:13
CLAUDIA
We now have a Department of war. We now have a president who does I images on social media that says that he's, you know, he wakes up every morning happy to see people suffer. I think we have to as people who give our government power, they don't have power over us. We give them power to tell them that it's done.
00:56:51:18 - 00:57:23:06
CLAUDIA
We want peace for everybody, right? And that includes people that we disagree with. But we want to be able to do that without fear of repercussions, without fear of having our families separated, without fear of having our community members criminalized. And it really does take, a society that realizes that the power is with them to speak up and to speak up for others.
00:57:23:08 - 00:57:23:22
DINO
For others.
00:57:23:22 - 00:57:25:11
CLAUDIA
Okay, to speak up for others.
00:57:25:11 - 00:57:49:01
DINO
And that's a great note to end on. My guest has been Professor Claudia, Doctor Claudia Sandoval, assistant professor of political science at Moreno Valley College, who joined us to discuss the Charlie Kirk, assassination, this unsettling period that we're all going through. I want to thank, Doctor Sandoval and all of my guests. Myra Hodgkin and Nora Priscilla, for this.
00:57:49:01 - 00:58:26:24
DINO
And I leave you with this note, folks, as we prepare to close out, you know, the task before us is different. We need to learn to heal and build something better. That means resisting the temptation to meet hate with hate and insist that instead we center dignity, truth, and justice even if we see our leaders around us unwilling to do that, communities must find a way to confront the ideas that Kirk stood for without reproducing the cruelty that he helped normalize healing requires investment.
00:58:27:01 - 00:58:35:22
DINO
Healing requires building civic spaces that foster dialog protection and for the most harmed.
00:58:35:24 - 00:58:47:11
DINO
And a way to get out of that trauma. With that, I want to thank my producer board operator, producer nella, board operator, and leave you.
00:58:47:11 - 00:58:48:05
DINO
With.
00:58:48:07 - 00:58:58:15
DINO
The next show, the car show coming up next. Remember, you can check out this program and all others at KPFA, dawg. We'll see you next week. Stay safe out there. Take care.
00:58:58:17 - 00:59:36:19
MUSIC
La la la la la la. Me and thought I was just gonna get you. Yeah, that's my. He never care I said I look at you, me sobbing. He ain't no la la la la la la la. They're all you see. Oh no signal president no. Get us the game.
00:59:36:21 - 00:59:39:03
ANNOUNCER
Vietnam Day from radio at traditional.
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ANNOUNCER
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ANNOUNCER
Saturday. Ask me nice up your weekend. It's all about music from Africa and the African world. Radio aphrodisiac. One 2:06 p.m.. Let's jump into criolla from the coast of Caribbean soca. Calypso. Juju music. Musica. Afro-Cuban.
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ANNOUNCER
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